They're the responsibility of the DM and the players to enforce through roleplaying. Or maybe it's actually impossible, because flesh is special and it remembers being alive. Evolved Summon Monster is broke as all hell. Character Sheets DnD in general mixes rules and fluff just enough to make people think it has to be that way while still making it really simple to decouple them. These effects don’t apply for creatures from the standard list that aren’t also on this list. In fact, having an evil alignment alone does not make one a super-villain or even require one to be thwarted or killed. After all, a body is just meat, right? The save DC is Charisma-based. Those who are forbidden from casting spells with an opposed alignment might lose their divine abilities if they circumvent that restriction (via Use Magic Device, for example), depending on how strict their deities are. What if you had to scar yourself? Tainting souls beyond the veil should have visible consequences here: a thousand people starving to death in another country doesn't bother us, but one on TV does. It's a bit like the "airplane on a treadmill" problem, in that it has to do with very fundamental assumptions that people make. New Pages I'm really enjoying my playthrough with my Evocation Wizard but fancy trying another playthrough with a Monster Tactician. The first step would be to ask them why they won't accept a you-based reason. People get sick. But you're not likely to find a spelled out "creating undead does these bad things" paragraph. When summoning a creature from this list, your debased nature allows you to cast the spell as a standard action. Abilties that monster have aren't usable by players, its up to the AI when it want to use them. In addition to the effect of nightmare, the target must succeed at a DC 40 Will save or contract a random insanity (Pathfinder RPG GameMastery Guide 250). https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/41663/what-rules-say-that-summoning-undead-is-evil-and-what-rules-say-why/41668#41668, https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/41663/what-rules-say-that-summoning-undead-is-evil-and-what-rules-say-why/111121#111121. You can detect them. Play up the concrete consequences of the Undead. By using our site, you acknowledge that you have read and understand our Cookie Policy, Privacy Policy, and our Terms of Service. All large-scale attempts to use it for Good fail. Pathfinder is a tabletop RPG based off of the 3.5 Ruleset of Dungeons and Dragons. Though this advice talks about evil spells, it also applies to spells with other alignment descriptors. d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/skeleton-medium/…, d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/…. Note that none of these things prevent using undead, it just means it has consequences. Whether or not casting the spell itself is Evil (or Lawful) is, as far as I know, up to the GM. Sell at the Open Gaming Store! Some examples: You're dealing with negative energies: Why is negative energy so bad? If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. I can't comment about in game, but Summon Monster spells don't have many Demons / Devils that you can summon. This is viewed as a violation of the person who died, at least certainly an indication of disrespect. Do you have any advice re builds? (and it includes a few bug fixes) All Summon Nature's Allies are now available up through Level 9. Horrible dreams for the necromancer. You can summon creatures that embody the forces of balance.. FAQ. Being raised as Undead clearly does something to your soul, because even True Resurrection, a spell that works even in the event of complete bodily destruction, fails if the target is currently undead: This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can't resurrect constructs or undead creatures. This spell summons an Extraplanar Creature (typically an Outsider, Elemental, or Magical Beast Native to another plane) from the 7th-level list or 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 6th-level list below, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from a lower-level list. I've said ... most of those things before. A Celestial is Good, therefore it does Good. The electricity could also come from a bad source. Perhaps it increases the Evil in the world, making things inevitably worse. ", Enter infinite loop until one of them said, "Where in the rules does it say that?". When summoning a creature from this list, your debased nature allows you to cast the spell as a standard action. But in the right hands, it can do enough good to counteract these cultural taboos. The Good aligned people would object to it, of course, but that's just their xenophobia talking. Benefit: When casting summon monster, you also have access to the list of evil monsters on this page. In Pathfinder, Good and Evil are fundamental forces in the world, just the same as gravity and magnetism. | 13th Age SRD | d20HeroSRD I'm just using the body as raw materials: Probably better, but maybe golems aren't as "smart" or powerful as undead are. A power plant that runs on burning toxic waste, for example. Fundamentally, it's because "that's how magic works", but I realize you might find that unsatisfying. Benefit (s): When casting summon monster, you also have access to the list of evil monsters on this page. 1) Casting a Summon Monster spell to summon a creature with an alignment subtype gives the spell that same alignment as a descriptor. Any better domains? A cleric can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's (if she has one). Overall I'd suggest summon monsters 1 level below to get that d3 roll (+1 with superior summoning), as you can overwhelm opponets with numbers of attacks. Lastly, since Sacred Summons is further penalized (can only summon that type of outsider as a standard action), I'm not sure Summon Evil Monster let's me get around that. Maybe they can, in the end, fight a greater evil with a lesser one. OK.. Since I'd like to avoid the character becoming evil, though, I think there's a possible workaround. This spell functions like summon monster I, except that you can summon one creature from the 4th-level list, 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 3rd-level list, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from a lower-level list. It is not flat-footed, however, and it can make attacks of opportunity as normal. This same reasoning applies to the Create Undead spell. What this suggest to me is that they expect GM-fluff to be a meaningful part of the game while Setting-fluff will not. Animate Dead is Evil. Nicely done, very nicely done. Animate Dead is Evil, sure. | FateCoreSRD A zombie hoard with ripped out cooked flesh, and you've sampled every one of them. The Alignment section calls out all [evil] spells as "minor acts of evil," and the creation of undead as a greater act of evil: Characters using spells with the evil descriptor should consider themselves to be committing minor acts of evil, though using spells to create undead is an even more grievous act of evil that requires atonement. The summoned creature appears as normal for the spell but can’t act until next your next turn. Thanks, Ace, for putting it all together so magnificently. doesn't have meaning in the Pathfinder universe. | GumshoeSRD (max 2 MiB). If I understand correctly, your players want an explanation for why undead are evil that is part of the rules of DnD and not your particular setting while also being a non-arbitrary reason: "some spells are Just Evil" is not enough for them. ... but it doesn't specify what lists are available for expanded summon monster or what defines a priest. It's a desecration of body and soul: Spells are too abstract to really be 'desecrations'. This is not realistic. At the end of the day, a great enough good justifies the use of Animate Dead. So when they are are simulated in RPG's it's pretty natural for them to be evil. Limit corruption to the direct consequences of the spells used. Just make the GM-fluff matter more. I think it's better this way, because then the players are faced with an actual moral choice, as opposed to either "it's evil because a book says so somewhere" or "it's so evil you can't do this at all". It seems arbitrary to them, and they don't want to accept any flavor I might give for it that they can't read in the book. For summon monster at lower levels, the number of monsters on the list that requires a template dominate, making the number of creatures a good or … Recent Changes Because it's Good. By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy, 2020 Stack Exchange, Inc. user contributions under cc by-sa, https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/41663/what-rules-say-that-summoning-undead-is-evil-and-what-rules-say-why/41664#41664. Prerequisite(s): Chaotic neutral, lawful neutral, or neutral alignment. Summon Monster IV. So, summoning a Summon Monster 2 used to summon a Lemure Demon is a Lawful Evil spell. If a character does something evil, but they can justify it as good are they evil? ", I said, "Then you're not using negative energy, you're not using necromancy, and you're not making undead, you're making a golem. | Starjammer SRD Discuss, organize, all that fun stuff! People start hating you and don't know why. It can come into conflict with the protagonists, sure. You are dealing with negative energies, it taints the soul beyond the veil even if you're only dealing with the body, and it's a desecration of body and soul. What makes this question really interesting, IMO, is that it's partially about how the two sets conflict. Vegetation slowly dies. There is no room for argument. What if you had to sacrifice someone to raise the dead? Well according to the list of monsters that is the only thing a good spellcaster can summon with the core Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. Evidence for this outlook can be found in the indicated good or evil monster subtypes, spells that detect good and evil, and spells that have the good or evil descriptor. Pathfinder: Kingmaker. Definitely adds a lot of fun variety/customization to summoning, but run it by your GM before taking it, and check yourself if you start breaking encounters. Prerequisite(s): Evil alignment. School conjuration (summoning); Level bard 4, cleric 4, sorcerer/wizard 4. Perhaps it increases the amount of Evil in the wielder, gradually corrupting them and changing their alignment. | Dungeon World SRD Benefit(s): When casting summon monster, you also have access to the list of evil monsters on this page. A creature that already has an insanity is immune to this ability. Well, that's the simplified version. level 1. You're closer to the published materials, but that's slim comfort when you're outnumbered. It's unlikely that Pathfinder ever takes a stand on this issue. But this covers a pretty good chunk of the popular definition. Or more accurately it shatters the action economy. My response is that no, summoning undead is always evil. The short version is that "what causes the creation of undead to be Evil?" I can use this force to do good (power a machine that cures cancer), or I can use that force to do evil (electrocute those who oppose me). An "Evil" alignment indicates that you act like Orcs, Goblins, Drow, and other antagonist-centric races expect you to act. (I just asked the folklorist sitting next to me). In either case, the electricity isn't good or evil. From PFSRD the list of actual Demons / Devils is rather small. Some of the players in my game keep coming up with the theory that they can make an army of undead and only use it for good deeds, and it won't be evil. All columns are sortable—just click on the arrows in the header row. This game assumes good and evil are definitive things. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. | Design Finder 2018 The greater the amount of time between castings, the less likely alignment will change. It's possible that the explanation you're looking for is out there. You'll find plenty of definition statements along the lines of "creating undead is foul/evil/bad" (but why?). It might be easier to get them to accept "undead = evil" if you can address this particular problem. This spell summons an Extraplanar Creature (typically an Outsider, Elemental, or Magical Beast Native to another plane) from the 9th-level list or 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 8th-level list below, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from a lower-level list. Oh, man. So basically, I'm having troubles all around. As for why said spell is evil, it's for the same reason summoning a fire elemental is [fire], whatever that reason is. You can also provide a link from the web. Yeah, it does seem arbitrary, but there are spells that can decide if you're evil or not and spells that kill you for having ADD. Ecology. Summon Monster * These creatures are summoned with the Celestial template if you are good and the Fiendish template if you are evil. It taints the soul beyond the veil: Who cares? You might be a terrible person, but at least you follow the rules. In other words, Good is a thing, and Evil is a thing. You can summon the aid of creatures driven their very nature to destroy goodness. This is an alphabetized list of all new monsters appearing in the Pathfinder campaign setting. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. Perhaps it blights the land and corrupts the minds of those around it. The section above applies to supernatural beings. | PF2 SRD. In contrast, there are plenty of examples of folklore/religion where people are brought back from the dead and that is pretty universally thought of as a good thing. You have a fundamental force like electricity. | d20 Anime SRD Summon Nature's Ally is the druid's version of Summon Monster, and it's clearly the weaker of the two sets of spells. Traveller SRD A subreddit for all things involving Pathfinder: Kingmaker CRPG made by Owlcat Games. Can a D&D Necromancer be of a good alignment? There are (via PFSRD) a total of 8 Demons and 6 Devils in the lists of Summoned monsters… Premonitions of where undead souls go, and how they wish they were back in Hell instead. Evil dont have this problem. You can take an Orc and raise it like a human, and it will be as likely to come out Good as anyone else. Summoning good undead is good, lawful ones lawful, and chaotic ones chaotic. While looking at a summoner build, I remembered the issue that the summon spells take the alignment of the creature summoned, making demon- or devil-summoning an evil act regardless of intent or context. All of these preserve the personality of the departed. What that means, is left to interpretation. Mortals with an evil alignment, however, are different from these beings. Note this creates two sets of explanations in any game: the RAW-fluff, or how the game makers think about the setting of the game, and the GM-fluff, which is how you think about it. You can summon the aid of creatures driven by their very nature to destroy evil. Their redemption is rare, if it is even possible. (and it includes a few bug fixes) Here are all 4 of my Summons and Familiar Modules. Perhaps it involves torturing and twisting the souls of those raised, denying them entrance to their afterlife for the duration (some support for this is in the rules, see True Resurrection above), and leaving them scarred for eternity. Witches can summon monsters but that is not all they can do. A wizard who uses animate dead to create guardians for defenseless people won’t turn evil, but he will if he does it over and over again. These creatures always have an alignment that … When summoning a creature from this list, your debased nature allows you to cast the spell as a standard action. What rules say that summoning undead is evil, and what rules say why? Spells are where things get messy. For reference you might look at Michael Swanwick's short story "The Dead" which explores the ultimate in outsourcing of manufacturing. | Swords and Wizardry SRD The spell is fundamentally Evil. So if you decide summoning undead is evil then it is (even if it weren't marked as an evil spell) and if you decide it's evil because, for example, the Good Gods have decreed that to be the case or because it does damage to the animated creature's soul or it increases the amount of negative energy in the world and therefore it is evil: that's your call. There are also many traditions of venerating the dead.