In other words, do you feel this man should be convicted because he had two women or that he appears to be a child molester?”. Is it misogynistic if a husband has to share his first wife with a second wife because his first wife falls in love with a woman? Both. A survey-based study in the Journal of Sociology revealed that "married respondents experience per person net … Second, that a polygamous society is closed, with no option for marriage except within that society. I find that a lot of seemingly inconsistent court rulings can be cleared up if you start from the legal theory of “We are almighty and hold dominion over all”. Box 1502 Freaks…child brides. A 16-year-old isn’t a child by any reasonable definition. Further, these freaks inevitably go for child brides. If you would like to donate online, please click the button below to be taken to our donation form: You can also support us on Patreon via the button below: The Institute for Family Studies is a 501(c)3 organization. 12.4.2020 8:00 AM, Robby Soave The two drew on discussions they conducted with sixty never-married, heterosexual men, who came from a variety of religious, ethnic, and family backgrounds and ranged in age from 25 to 33. Please find one society that has practiced polygomy in large areas that isn’t both mysogonistic and backward? You could make the same argument in that case. It doesn’t seem to be much of a threat. Click and read the entire linked “glad” page and linked “notes” page from the original post. If Mr. Holm were named Ali and he and his brides were Somalis I doubt it would have gone this far. How about enforcing the written wills of people rather than tossing their belongings ro whomever has some other piece of paper? The perception of loss of freedom. Further, unless you are going to start mandating that far more girls be born than boys, by allowing polygamy you are depriving men of the ability to marry. I wonder why? It is not hair spliting at all. . 12.2.2020 4:20 PM, © 2020 Reason Foundation | “Further, unless you are going to start mandating that far more girls be born than boys, by allowing polygamy you are depriving men of the ability to marry. So, basically, he is a bigamist because he married the girl, but he raped her because he did not marry her… It is not the first time, nor will this be the last time, that government faux judges make such aberrant “legal” decisions. When you are in a marriage… Who wouldn’t want that? The act of going through the second ceremony and claiming someone as your wife for the second time is the crime. The law in Antarctica says you are no longer married after one year. Since the wedding has no legal effect beyond making him guilty of polygamy, he is guilty of sexually abusing the girl. I suspect that, in about two-thirds of these cases, the partner seeking more commitment is the woman while the man drags his feet. There’s no harm in not getting married and still maintaining stability. Men begin to see themselves as fathers, providers, and protectors when they transition into marriage. And doesn’t this mean the 16 year old Rodney Holm married is a bigamist as well? Holm argued that he did not “purport to marry” in a legal sense because everyone involved understood that the marriage would not be recognized by the state. Second, according to the work of sociologist Steve Nock, marriage changes men in fundamental ways. .I would NOT want to be in a family with 10 women (wives and teen daughters) all with PMS at the same time. It has to. Better yet, if you are worried about the “permanence” of said marriages, why get married in the first place. “I never understood the allure of bigamy.”. Get it? In addition to being happier and healthier than bachelors, married men earn more money and live longer. Go to the middle east where it is done and look at those societies. The key to maximizing this benefit is for both of you to open your own IRA account. Your donation will be tax-deductible. Some working-class women, for instance, have revealed in interviews that they resist marriage because it is harder to exit than cohabitating relationships. The financial benefits of marriage really do mount up in key areas like savings, taxes, credit, and retirement. Young men associate marriage with increased responsibilities and with a greater possibility of financial loss. It wasn’t a real marriage, but a fake one. Why? One large influx of immigrants who buy into the idea and that changes. This case is really an issue of the ability to raise a criminal defense. It may in fact be that 16 years old is too high and age of consent. Wow, so in Utah you can be a bigamist without ever being married! From the January 2021 issue, Charles Oliver 12.2.2020 4:06 PM. What about the consenting women? you mean that they saw the goings on in Iraq, started throwing flowers and kisses, and declared they don’t want to be ronery any more? Now, if the government would stop issuing these “who you can do” licenses we would all be much better off. Since however, the state doesn’t recognize polygamy, that second marriage is against state policy and legally void except to make you guilty of polygamy. The world is so much larger than the little ‘Mormonland bubble’ of Utah/Arizona,” said Henkel. However, they may not benefit as much as men may. Polygamy is inherently misogynistic and there is not one society that allows it that isn’t grossly misogynistic. In other words, they reported that the men they knew would, indeed, change after getting married—but that the change would be negative for these women, so they resist marriage. Historically, marriage has played a critical role in the raising of children. I predict that, within 10 years, California will pass laws permitting marriage between consenting adults, including what Heinlein called “Synthetic” marriages of any number of people. Because he never really married Ruth. Any examples of polyandrous societies? But it might make things messier if the two of you decide to end things. I just don’t like Mormons. Interesting choice of divisive words. The fact that this guy is a creepy asshole who broke the law doesn’t mean that he’s a child molester. Max Gulker But it does raise some questions. For media inquiries, contact Michael Toscano (michael@ifstudies.org). “Marriage without benefits” which is a play on “friends with benefits”. And sex with a 16 year old? Men resist marriage because it entails a substantial change in their behavior and commitment. There are a number of possible interpretations of findings like this. First, it is illegal to stage a fake marriage when you are actually married (bigamy). Allowing polygyny is common in cultures, but few men manage to attract mutiple wive. You are the one making generalizations. Beyond that, I don’t see how this case is relevant to society as a whole either way. All things aside, it was probably an advantage to be a multiple-wife in the ancient world. And we know he will. That's because men tend to lean on their wives for a majority of … joe’s right. So how is a polygamist who marries two different women different than a deadbeat who impregnates two different women? But of course equal protection concerns means it has to be banned as well. Had both women been over 18, then obviously he is not guilty of sexual abuse of a minor and couldn’t be prosecuted for it. It is the most disgusting thing in the world. If so, how could he be convicted of bigamy? But in upholding Holm's convictions, the Utah Supreme Court ruled that marry in this context includes a religious union with no legal standing. | I’d buy that, John, if it was two different “marriages” that we were talking about. This could be evidence of an inner view that, after marriage—but not before—their partners have the right to tell them what to do. It is a one time crime. Polygamy is inherently misogynistic and there is not one society that allows it that isn’t grossly misogynistic. If it were any other way, you couldn’t ever prosecute polygamy because if the second marriage is void, then how are you married twice and if the second marriage is valid, how is it a crime? The motives to get married or to avoid marriage may be different for those at lower incomes. Having more material resources and fewer pregnancies meant that as a woman in the ancient world, you were likely to live a longer and healthier life. About the only thing you can say about this case is, at least he isn’t gay. . The women he patronized now have criminal records. So, your take is that polygamy is wrong because it is mysogynistic. Please feel free to contact us by using your preferred method detailed below. Taxes are often lower. It assumes five things which are not true. His argument rests on the potency of the social role of “husband.” In general, he argued, men begin to see themselves as fathers, providers, and protectors when they transition into marriage. Both men and women benefit from marriage, but men seem to benefit more overall. So why do they hesitate to commit? And men can reap such benefits even from mediocre marriages, while for women, the benefits of marriage … | I take it back. And men can reap such benefits even from mediocre marriages, while for women, the benefits of marriage are more strongly linked to marital quality. A Tidal Wave of Polygamists at the Gates of Fortress REASON! Most scholars assume that a major reason for these benefits is wives’ direct influence on their husbands’ behavior: “That’s your third beer tonight—why don’t you stop with that?” “You need to go to the doctor and get that mole looked at.” “You’ve been working late every night, running yourself ragged. Polygamous marriages have no legal effect other than to make you guilty of polygamy. Third, that everyone who wants to marry will find a suitable mate from within the options available to them (ASK me why I don’t date American women!). I don’t feel the court was inconsistent. Donate Now, Katherine Mangu-Ward The answer is that in cases of polygamy, the state does not recognize the marriage legally other than to declare it illegal and prosecute you for it. Kwix, Any examples of polyandrous societies? Like your wife, most women aren’t apt to share their husbands. Being married is like being trapped in a small cabin with an angry bee. Women were not marginalized but revered. The answer is that the second marriage is invaled and legally will not be recognized but you will be prosecuted for the act of being married to two different people and no you don’t get to claim spousal privileges when explaining why you were having sex with a 15 year old. What of those “freaks” that don’t choose “child brides”, who choose adult, consenting women. The OSU study doesn’t explore the reasons why married couples can sock away more money, but the author suggests several possibilities. A number of sociologists have found that the motives to get married or to avoid marriage may be different for those at lower incomes than for those who are middle- or higher-income. "Cohabitation has some but not all of the benefits of marriage," said Linda Waite, the association's president, in an address to members in which she argued that the married enjoy better … That doesn’t excuse taking advantage of an emotionally immature girl in this case, but using the loaded words “child molester” is wrong and, in my view, immoral. In case anyone still doesn’t get it, here is a clip: “Because all of those reports and the Holm case all originate from that one small local group called the FLDS, on the border of Utah and Arizona,” Henkel explained, “the overall media has mis-applied those stories to present a false illusion that all polygamists around the country supposedly are Mormon Polygamists and/or come from the FLDS. Marriage and Children. Third, research on sacrifice in marriage provides another window on potential differences between men and women. Uh, John, you need to check you assumptions at the door. For example, were the heart attacks of single people more … “Marriage” can have a lot of meanings. Oh, wait a second… something just occured to me…! I always thought having one mother-in-law was enough. Both. But then, I hadn’t considered marrying sisters. Further, unless you are going to start mandating that far more girls be born than boys, by allowing polygamy you are depriving men of the ability to marry. M arriage is not worth it. It is doubtless true that women’s increased economic opportunities, as well as the changes in the roles of men and women in families, may substantially alter the types of commitment dynamics I’ve described. Further, these freaks inevitably go for child brides. Thanks for your interest in supporting the work of The Institute for Family Studies. The Utah statute states, “A person is guilty of bigamy when, knowing he has a husband or wife or knowing the other person has a husband or wife, the person purports to marry another person or cohabits with another person.”. You live in a free forward looking society and benifit from people following some basic moral rules and then deny the validity of those very rules. Within 25 years, 49 states will have such laws . Now according to Utah law, even if the state has only stamped one piece of paper, cohabitation with the other is illegal. Charlottesville, VA 22902. I was married enough to be prosecuted for polygamy had I been caught, but not married enough for my poor second wife to get a piece of my estate. That DOES sound somewhat inconsistent, John. But then, that is what moralists do.”. I thought he said stone unto others as you would have them stone unto to you, or something like that. Marriage is a sham for men. Therefore, at this stage he is a bigamist in Utah. How about stop telling people who they are married to if they don’t want to be married, aka, “common law marriage”. Steve Adler attended his daughter's 20-person wedding and then traveled with out-of-state family and friends. A recentstudyof 25,000 people in England found that among people having a heart attack, those who were married were 14% more likely to survive and they were able to leave the hospital two days sooner than single people having a heart attack. I’m not a cheerleader for polygamy, and I’m glad the LDS Church washed its hands of it years ago. Not all relationship transitions are transformative, but marriage is meant to be. Jacob Sullum is a senior editor at Reason. For those that still can’t see the consistency, I’ll take it in stages for you. Lastly, while it may not take off much in our current society, who is to say that will always be the case? An essay at Pro-Polygamy.com notes  an interesting wrinkle in the case: In Utah a girl may marry at 16 with parental consent, which Ruth had, and marriage makes sex with her husband perfectly legal, even if he is considerably older. Marriage is an important and essential for human life. Yet no one considers that to be a problem anymore; I don’t see the Utah AG going after any of them (unless they don’t pay their child support). I meant to say: When you do, it is obvious that many people posting comments here are saying foolish things. Men are designed to be attracted to sexually mature women, and throughout most of human history a 16-year-old would have been fair game for marriage, often to a man decades her elder. It’s time to get the government out of marriage. Further, they reported experiencing almost no social pressures to marry; not from family, not from friends, and not from the families of the women they live with. If there is a problem, it is a problem with the statute, not the ruling. It meant that you were attached to a man who had the financial means to take care of several wives – not just some poor schmuck. Unfortunately this seems to be part of a “convict them all, let God sort them out” trend in U.S. courts. That means it matters. I think Sullum’s just noting the inconsistency of the court ruling that the man was “married enough” to the young girl to be guilty of bigamy, but not “married enough” to use the marriage exemption to the law against sexual conduct with a minor. Webathon 2020 It was one ceremony. The law makes these kinds of distinctions all the time. They do not know what they are talking about. As far as polyandry, I don’t know of one place it is practiced. The current administration’s trade policies have left the incoming president some low-hanging fruit. Then the second wife would get more child support during the marriage than if she married a less wealthy monogamist. Logically, then, men should be the ones pursuing marriage: they seem to view it as desirable, and they are more likely than women to gain major benefits from it. Neither do most adult women. You make a bunch of assumptions about people and espouse a prohibition based on the generalized acts of a few. Why would you want more bees? Fortunately, there IS a God, and He won’t permit any judge to tell me that I am still married to my ex-shrew . Legal Benefits: If one … John, Way to dodge a question. I hope Reason does not become a shill for polygamists and their child brides. Hold it. Why? Utah Supreme Court ruled that marry in this context includes a religious union with no legal standing. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. But then, that is what moralists do. Who wouldn’t want that? If “polygamous marriages” do not produce a marriage, then no crime is committed. First, that there are an equal number of men and women in each age group (women outnumber men). If marriage has been a particularly strong signal of a change in men’s committed behavior, it would explain the stereotype of women pushing for marriage and men resisting. | Report abuses. And sex with a 16 year old? Plus, there was a constant stream of new converts arriving in Utah during the 1850’s and 1860’s, and many of them were single women. So John, Is your concern that he was ‘married’ to two women at once or that his second ‘bride’ was 16? If so, then I must have been a real early starter for a “child”. John, there are plenty of men who live with and create children with several different women — NBA player Shawn Kemp being the most notable — at the same time. Women who are in a good marriage tend to benefit from good health. What do Mormon polygamists say about the women they recruit to be their brides? | You could make the lame ass “your just a moralist” argument about anything. In addition, if you legalize it over time there is nothing to say that it won’t become more accepted and more common and we end up with a backward mysogonistic society full of unmarried young men. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. That would seem to be preferable to allowing the State to torture the plain meaning of and the policy behind, the unlawful sex with a minor and the bigamy statutes. … “I never understood the allure of bigamy.”. Please strike “the fact that the A.G. isn’t” in the first sentence of my previous post. As far as being a moralist, it is not being a moralist to take a practicle look at what certain rules or lack thereof would do to a society and decided that those rules are a bad idea. This is the typical template: in the beginning, husband and wife have great … That doesn’t mean you were not “married” it just means that the state will not recognize your marriage for the purpose of criminal defenses. Second, only a real marriage, not a fake one, is a defense against a charge of nookie with a teenager. Just keep two girlfriends. “How is polygamy different than concurrent girlfriends?”. 12.3.2020 4:35 PM. Sorry, but this guy isn’t a child molester. Of course we don’t want people out there knocking up multiple women, but it is probably not practical or just to throw them in jail for that. Joe I don’t think it is an inconsistancy. Bull shit. Just because you can imagine cases where polygamy wouldn’t harm anyone, you think that you can therefore deny the obvious horrible effects widespread polygamy has on society. This is making my head hurt and I have not even gone out drinking after the good news at work, much less earning a hangover. Married couples, he points out, can save money by sharing household expenses and household duties. Worried about the “legal” aspects of marriage/divorce, get a prenup. We encourage members of the media interested in learning more about the people and projects behind the work of the Institute for Family Studies to get started by perusing our "Media Kit" materials. Same way here, he can’t use the defense of “being married” to the charge of having sex with a minor. Having sex with a 16 year old wife is legal. It doesn’t produce a marriage in terms of creating a defense against child molestation. Marriage isn’t permanent either, $250 and a judge’s stamp later and boom, free to go about your merry ways. That they will … And that’s certainly in line with contemporary cultural stereotypes. Because he never really married Ruth. It is not a continuing crime. It just screwed the men too poor to afford a wife. That, or else people here are attatched to the whole “rule of law” thing. “Please find one society that has practiced polygomy in large areas that isn’t both mysogonistic and backward?”. P.O. | He is obviously guilty of that. Like christ rock said, if you like fu**in, marriage ain’t for you. Look at it this way. Some polygamists are glad the U.S. Supreme Court this week declined to hear fundamentalist Mormon Rodney Holm's challenge of his bigamy conviction as a violation of his religious freedom. Am I reading the statute correctly? It doesn’t produce a marriage in terms of creating a defense against child molestation. “So which is it: if polygamy is legal then everybody will be doing it and we will have a society of restless single men or women just don’t get it and won’t participate, ergo, no problem?”. This is totally consistent with the way stronger commitment transforms one’s sense of a relationship. There is no benefit. There are often financial benefits associated with marriage. In addition, couples enjoy many benefits single people do not when it comes to insurance, retirement, and taxes.However, being married carries some financial costs as well. State law makes you guilty of bigamy if you “purport to marry” a second wife. It’s not worth the financial sacrifices, the lost sexual opportunities, and the lack of freedom. Yet another example of why the state should get out of the marriage business. They have very little if any “recruitment” into their ranks, and would probably vanish on their own in 20-30 years. So, if you are already breaking the law by having a wife and a mistress, why not two wives? They are isolated agricultural islands that are slowly disappearing; hence the increasing “inbreeding” and marriages to ever-younger women. How do you stop that? I think people should read the posted links before they speak. . If so, they will be the first ones in the history of the world. Q. Of course, we see just how non-mysogonistic Romans were. In other words, do you feel this man should be convicted because he had two women or that he appears to be a child molester? Jobless spouse can have an IRA. You marriage is good enough to get you thrown in jail for bigamy but not legally sufficient to work a defense to child molestation. When this dirt bag napped his second child bride, he was committing polygamy. Easy there, John. Why isn’t the state going after men who fly from blossom to blossum without any sense of commitment, instead of throwing men who have committed in a religious ceremony to support two different women in jail?”. What about polyandry then? Unlimited marital tax deduction is the biggest tax benefit a married couple can receive, Blank Rome LLP matrimonial lawyer and partner Dylan S. Mitchell says. The answer is that the second marriage is invaled and legally will not be recognized but you will be prosecuted for the act of being married to two different people and no you don’t get to … When you take the second wife, you are committing the act of being married and comitting the crime. Most women won’t, but it only takes a few to screw up the numbers. A single taxpayer without paid work isn’t generally eligible to … “That illusion is utter fiction,” Henkel said. “I will ask again, is your concern that he was ‘married’ to two women, or that one of his ‘brides’ was under 18?”. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Further, they reported that men would expect a more traditional division of duties by gender in marriage than is expected in cohabitation. Wait, wouldn’t that make it bigamy to move in with a boyfriend/girlfriend after separating from your spouse but before finalizing a legal divorce? But, that doesn’t keep you from being guilty of polygamy. “So how is a polygamist who marries two different women different than a deadbeat who impregnates two different women? Married couples enjoy certain social security benefits. It doesn’t matter if you divorce the second wife 20 seconds or 20 years after the ceremony, you are just as guilty either way. Yet Holm was convicted of “unlawful sexual conduct with a minor” in addition to bigamy. If for example, he had committed some other crime and were on trial, would he be able to claim spousal immunity and prevent his second wife from testifying against him? Hey Kwix – are there examples of cultures that have practiced torture – but where those cultures aren’t backwards? Now, stage 2: This bigamist sleeps with a 16 year old that legally isn’t his wife. Whatever crimes this man committed (of which only the statutory rape should be an issue), calling him a child molester only confuses the issue. Those of you outside of Utah might want to know that this is the only state in the Union which has anti-polygamy written into the state Constitution. 12.4.2020 4:00 AM. As stated above, one wife at a time is more than enough. “Is your concern that he was ‘married’ to two women at once or that his second ‘bride’ was 16? I am not unsympathetic to that argument. In the Judeo/Christian/Muslim world? You Don't Need To Be Married To Fulfill A Lifelong Commitment. There are evangelical Christian Polygamists, secular polygamists, and other forms as well, including Muslim polygamists. He’d rather selectively enforce it against members of unpopular religious groups. 12.4.2020 9:00 AM, Steven Greenhut Holm, who married Ruth Stubbs, his legal wife's 16-year-old sister, in a religious ceremony, is something of an embarassment to polygamists who believe in plural marriage only among consenting adults. In the Judeo/Christian/Muslim world? \"You can transfer an unlimited amount of assets to your spouse at any time, free from tax. In most cases, the economic benefits of marriage are substantial. I just want to point out the brilliant title . Laws can sometimes be hard to sort out, that’s why courts are needed. Humans just dont’ seem to be wired that way. Strike “act of being married,” replace with “act of getting married.” You don’t actually become married when you perform that act while already legally married. Once you take out these government handout scams (to include ignoring one’s will) then it is a big fat non issue. Over thousands of years of history, women would have come to expect a substantial change in men from tying the knot. So which is it: if polygamy is legal then everybody will be doing it and we will have a society of restless single men or women just don’t get it and won’t participate, ergo, no problem? “joe | March 1, 2007, 1:59pm | # Hey, John. . If so, how could he be convicted of bigamy? There is nothing logically inconsistant in that. Everybody Panic!!! And furthermore, isn’t that a bit redundant? No matter how he looked at it, Tumin found marriage did nothing for men’s health. The system worked for multiple wives. For example, men earn more income when they’re married, work more, spend less time with friends apart from marriage and family, and spend more time with family and in the community in which the family is embedded. Children raised by their own married mother and father are: Less likely to be … Fifth, that women who marry polygamists would rather either be married to someone else or wait for the perfect man. Polygamy back then had a strong practical element to it, ensuring that there were no widows or spinsters in the community who did not have some source of protection or support. Charges against Kraft were (rightfully) dismissed. They oppose the underage crimes coming out of one single mormon polygamous sect.
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